Glassy Water Landing in a Gyro?

[loftus]

So I have never flown a gyro on floats, and yesterday while practicing glassy water landings in my Aircam, I questioned how one would do this in a gyro on floats. The single most important thing with glassy water landings is the fact that it is impossible to judge one's height above the surface, so the technique involves setting one's pitch and adding some power to hold the pitch at the last visual reference, usually the lake edge, with a descent rate at 50-100fpm and then just waiting for the landing to happen. Here's a video I did yesterday of my own glassy water landing, I imagine one would have to do the same in a gyro even though it breaks the rule of no forward speed on touchdown. Anyone on the forum who has flown a gyro on floats, I'd like to hear. Wasn't sure whether to post in the video section or here.

Glassy Water 1080

This is "Glassy Water 1080" by Waterworld Images on Vimeo, the home for high quality videos and the people who love them.

vimeo.com

 

[WaspAir]

I have R22 Mariner time, but not gyro. I suggest tossing a seat cushion, life vest, or some other artificial flotsam out on a first pass, and then using it for a target on the next pass to land with low speed (it will give you a basis for judging height and descent rate).

 

[Eric S]

I'd be reluctant to try the glassy water technique in a gyro. I'd land next to the shoreline or a channel marker or a boat and then water taxi.

In videos I've seen, it looks like landings are fun and easy, but long takeoff runs. I'd be more worried about hitting boat wakes or swells on takeoff.

Getting the CG right is going to be important to keep it from porposing on takeoff without an elevator.

 

[MikeBoyette]

Ever notice gyros on floats fly very flat and almost never pull the power or dive. I wouldn’t get out of the electric chair to get in one. A non powered see saw rotor head with drag below the CG is an accident waiting to happen. Air gets on top of those things and you could not have enough control force to pull the nose up as your tumbling forward to your death. Just because some things can be done doesn’t mean they should be or is truly safe. Hell you could drive a rail dragster on a public road but eventually your gonna die.

 

[Aerofoam]

I think you could pull it off with a purpose built (Or is that Porpoise built?) tractor design and flying boat type fuselage, but on a pusher
it won't end well.....

 

[MikeBoyette]

Norman Lethridge claims to have built several. He uses a pusher however it has a very large volume HS. It also uses a spindle rotor head which seems much better sooted for that application.

He typically likes to build his machines with an 72” to 80” two bladed propeller. He gets huge amounts of thrust out of a 503. Since he basically lives in the North Pole he flys in air so thick we would struggle to breath it.

He is a Salmon Fishing Lodge owner so his working season is most people’s flying season. He has a 503 powered Dominator with a 72’ prop and skis that he doesn’t fly until the river he uses for a runway is solid ice. With very little wind he gets off the ice very short and flys amazing with very little throttle.

He keeps a survival kit with him in the body of the gyro. One flight quite a few years ago he ventured out only 30 minutes. Had an engine out and had to snow shoe it home. He said it took over a week. He almost froze to death. Any normal mortal human like us would have. He claims to be an alien and truly believes he has lived many many lives. He says he remembers them all. Great guy very smart but a little odd like all of us who love gyros. When he comes to Florida he dresses in all black no matter how hot it is.

 

[RogerB]

Norman Lethridge claims to have built several. He uses a pusher however it has a very large volume HS. It also uses a spindle rotor head which seems much better sooted for that application.

He typically likes to build his machines with an 72” to 80” two bladed propeller. He gets huge amounts of thrust out of a 503. Since he basically lives in the North Pole he flys in air so thick we would struggle to breath it.

He is a Salmon Fishing Lodge owner so his working season is most people’s flying season. He has a 503 powered Dominator with a 72’ prop and skis that he doesn’t fly until the river he uses for a runway is solid ice. With very little wind he gets off the ice very short and flys amazing with very little throttle.

He keeps a survival kit with him in the body of the gyro. One flight quite a few years ago he ventured out only 30 minutes. Had an engine out and had to snow shoe it home. He said it took over a week. He almost froze to death. Any normal mortal human like us would have. He claims to be an alien and truly believes he has lived many many lives. He says he remembers them all. Great guy very smart but a little odd like all of us who love gyros. When he comes to Florida he dresses in all black no matter how hot it is.

Sounds like an awesome guy to have a beer with

 

[MikeBoyette]

Sounds like an awesome guy to have a beer with

Yeah except he prefers Flor de Caña rum. He also doesn’t exhibit very many manners considered civilized. He has to be reminded of things considered impolite to discuss in public because of the raw opposing emotions people exhibit when even mentioned. His self proclaimed mentor in such things is Ernie. That tells you what a raw unfiltered person he is. He denounces Cananda as a country and refuses to fly their flag. Instead he chooses to fly the stars and bars. He said he aligns with us southern Americans more than any other Earthlings. Doesn’t cuss but can make you feel like you got cussed out with far more intelligence and calmness than any other person I have ever been around. He’s weird in so many ways. He doesn’t trim his beard ever, he goes flying in -17 degrees or colder weather ice forms on his beard and the wind from flying breaks it off perfectly every time. He is family to me. Until recently we all were like that. A bunch of weirdo misfits brought together by the love of flying the most amazing and fun machines in existence that I personally became closer to than my own blood with the exception of the provider of the high times my pops. As with anything things change and evolve not always for the better. Every generation says theirs is the last of the good. I truly believe mine is the last. The ones behind us have their priorities all mixed up and will have us speaking Chinese eventually.

 

[Resasi]

Haven't flown a gyro on floats but have been a seaplane instructor on Lake Buccaneers.

even though it breaks the rule of no forward speed on touchdown.

I think you can safely ignore that rule... unless you were very tight on landing space, in which case landing there is not advised,
Tight on fuel, or, with plenty of space to land on, in which case WaspAir's suggestion is spot on for glassy water landing.

I suggest tossing a seat cushion, life vest, or some other artificial flotsam out on a first pass, and then using it for a target on the next pass to land with low speed (it will give you a basis for judging height and descent rate).

Attempting to land a gyro at min speed ...which I always attempt to do, does require you to have good peripheral perspective, and good appreciation of your height above touchdown.

Glassy water gives you very little perspective/height cues and that sort of landing attempted under these circumstances is an invitation to disaster.

If you do not have anything throw, landing close to a shoreline/bank can assist with some appreciation of height and descent rate, glassy water suggests that there will be no appreciable head wind.

 

[rcflier]

Attempting to land a gyro at min speed ...which I always attempt to do, does require you to have good peripheral perspective, and good appreciation of your height above touchdown.

Well written - been there - done that. Cost me a new undercarriage bow...

 

[Greg Vos]

Qatar coast guard use gyros with floats ….i just don’t like them then again I’m not a great fan of Auto Gyro Gyroplanes

 

[loftus]

Victor Agadzi in Pensacola flew his MTO on floats with 160HP upgraded Rotax for quite a few years; I'll have to see what his thoughts are. He mostly landed in the bay so probably no glassy water situations.

 

[Doug Riley]

The only way to know "fer sure" that your float gyro cannot do a "nose tuck" because of high thrustline and/or low center of drag is to play with a scale model. The H-stab likely has to be on the order of 10 sq. feet in area (since it takes a six-square-footer just to full stabilize a low-riding, HTL wheels-based gyro.)

More than one floats Bensen has, in fact, tucked and dived into the water out of control. One such accident happed to a longtime gyro friend of mine, Harlan Gage. He survived, and even rebuilt his gyro, but he sustained quite serious injuries in an uncommanded dive into Long Island Sound.

 

[Eric S]

Victor Agadzi in Pensacola flew his MTO on floats with 160HP upgraded Rotax for quite a few years; I'll have to see what his thoughts are. He mostly landed in the bay so probably no glassy water situations.

I would LOVE to talk w/Victor about his float gyro experience. I think he also had a float trike years ago and has now gone to a flying boat style amphib. similar to a Lake Amphib. or a Searey. I sent him a facebook msg. awhile back with my number, but didn't hear from him. I'll send you a PM with my number as well and request you ask him to please call me? I'd really like to hear what he thinks.

Eric

 

[Eric S]

The only way to know "fer sure" that your float gyro cannot do a "nose tuck" because of high thrustline and/or low center of drag is to play with a scale model. The H-stab likely has to be on the order of 10 sq. feet in area (since it takes a six-square-footer just to full stabilize a low-riding, HTL wheels-based gyro.)

More than one floats Bensen has, in fact, tucked and dived into the water out of control. One such accident happed to a longtime gyro friend of mine, Harlan Gage. He survived, and even rebuilt his gyro, but he sustained quite serious injuries in an uncommanded dive into Long Island Sound.

I would think limiting the VNE would go a long way toward remaining stable in flight. I need to call Jim at Sport Copter since he tried it on his Vortex single, but I've never seen another Sport Copter on floats.

Once there are whitecaps on the water it's no fun anymore anyway, so limiting the weather conditions for float flying is practically automatic.

 

[Doug Riley]

Limiting VNE would not make an unstable float gyro stable. It might increase the SENSATION of stability.

There are two ways in which floats de-stabilize a gyro:

1. They move the fuselage's center of aerodynamic pressure (usually roughly the same as its center of parasite drag) down, well below the fuselage's center of mass. This produces a tendency for the gyro to "drag over." Both the drag of the floats, and the down-force created by the horizontal stabilizer, are functions of the square of the airspeed, so they change in proportion to each other. Either the H-stab is adequate to counteract the float's tendency to pull the nose down, or it isn't -- regardless of airspeed; and

2. Their mass of 50, 75, or so pounds moves the gyro's center of mass down below the prop thrustline. This creates the infamous HTL (high thrustline) situation that has flipped so many older-design gyros out of the sky. Again, either the H-stab is adequate or it isn't.

If the H-stab lacks the power to neutralize the pitchover tendency in either respect, then the rotor must do the job. The problem is that the rotor's thrust comes and goes with control inputs and with vertical turbulence. Rotor thrust therefore is not a reliable means of stabilizing an airframe that has a pitchover tendency not fully countered by adequate H-stab power.

A stock Bensen gyro on floats, for example, has a teeny H-stab and is a candidate for both drag-over and power pitchover. If flown cautiously, with these tendencies in mind, it's not instantly/automatically lethal. It is, however, a steel trap set to get you in a moment of absent-mindedness. I wouldn't fly a gyro with such a configuration, slowly or otherwise.

 

[Aerofoam]

I found this article, seems risky at best, things are generally good until they aren't, in this case if things going bad, it's probably really bad....
Hopefully all went well with this one....

The Only Amphibious Gyroplane In The U.S. | Aero-News Network

It Might Look A Bit Odd, But Builder Says It's A Good Flying Machine The gyroplane community here in the United States is mostly familiar with | Published: Mon, Jan 28, 2013 | Aero-News Network

www.aero-news.net

 

[loftus]

I found this article, seems risky at best, things are generally good until they aren't, in this case if things going bad, it's probably really bad....
Hopefully all went well with this one....

The Only Amphibious Gyroplane In The U.S. | Aero-News Network

It Might Look A Bit Odd, But Builder Says It's A Good Flying Machine The gyroplane community here in the United States is mostly familiar with | Published: Mon, Jan 28, 2013 | Aero-News Network

www.aero-news.net

This was the first MTO in the US that was on floats. It was based in Edgewater, Fl, I don't believe much came of it.
Victor Agadzi in Pensacola really worked the concept in his MTO making numerous mods most significantly upgrading power to an Edge 155HP powerplant. Even with this powerplant, my observation of videos is that it took an inordinate amount of time to get off the water. He has now sold it and is moving on to a Seamax fixed wing amphib. I think the difficulties relating to gyros on floats are numerous as have been mentioned here. Starting with a very draggy aircraft and making it more so. I think the increased difficulty of glassy water landings is yet another consideration.
There's also another adage about aircraft on floats that I will vouch for, that is if you add floats to an airplane you double the maintenance, and if you put it in saltwater, you double the maintenance again! Flying seaplanes is a labor of love, once you've made your first water landing and takeoff it's pretty addicting, just like gyros.

EdgePerformance As

Victor Agadzi’s tricked out Gyro with EP155HP 😉

www.facebook.com

 

[Aerofoam]

Thread drift........
I always wanted to build a ground effect vehicle, there is some real grey area there, it has to be registered as a boat and cannot sustain flight out of ground effect. Many have enough power to go fast enough for serious "Hops" like being able to head straight for an island, or peninsula and translate speed to altitude to hop up to 300ft. for over a mile....

I really think the only feasible float gyro would be a flying boat fuselage, like a modified "J2F Duck" without the wings.....

 

[WaspAir]

Where would you put the wingtip floats?