RAF 2000 for sale

Wanted to upload the material from RAF on the stabilator. They make it clear the purpose of the stabilator is to:

 Reduces pilot workload
 Increases control stick feedback
 Improves trim as airspeed
increases
 Dampens rotor motion
 Enhances the flying experience

They also acknowledge Mr. Hunn's involvement in the development. So as pointed out by Aerofoam does not replace a HS.
 

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Thank you for sharing that. I gagged when I read this:

RAF conducted tests using the Horizontal Stabilizer and found there were some negative flight characteristics along with a reduction in the control of the RAF 2000 gyroplane. A gyroplane is a pendulum aircraft that requires the pilot to shift the weight on the bottom of the rotor disc to control the rotor disc in flight. A Horizontal Stabilizer restricts the pendulum effect thereby reducing controllability.

Their understanding of flight physics, as Vance would say, is divergent from my own.

By the way, with a public use in the U.S. dating back over 21 years, there will be no unexpired patent rights. To my knowledge, no manufacturer has followed RAF with such a device as a horizontal stabilizer substitute, and I predict none ever will.
 
THRUSTLINES and HORIZONTAL STABILIZERS. ETC article by Greg Gremminger
 

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Thanks Resasi for the information and glad you had a positive experience with the RAF. I had occasion today to correspond with Eben Mocke from RAF in South Africa. He was very helpful in providing details on the kit build process, quality of documentation, etc. I also learned the RAF 2000 is the only gyro certified for commercial operations in South Africa by the SACAA...says something since a good portion of the global gyro manufacturers are represented in SA as well but yet to receive certification (at least for commercial operations). As I understand it, RAFs are frequently used for farm crop spraying work.

RAF in South Africa has a large operation in addition to hosting a flight school, they of course have manufacturing operations, service/repair and a commercial agricultural division. Seems like a pretty squared away group of companies; pretty much an extended family run business. They have successfully operated for 16+ years, so they must be doing something right as tough as the light sport business is.

We spoke about the HS issue and he did share with me some printed documentation about why they patented the "stabilator" system and decided against the use of a HS. It was clear to me they have given this HS debate a lot of consideration and based on their testing, analysis and design considerations, they elected to approach this from a different solution; certainly their choice how they want to design their aircraft and they have remained in business for many years, so I don't pass any judgement one way or the other. I can't speak to the prior owner/founder of RAF when it was a Canadian company, however RAF South Africa has a compelling business model and they offer a wide array of services to their customers. As I previously posted, the safety record of the RAF in South Africa does not seem to support this idea that RAFs fall out of the sky on a regular basis. RAF South Africa makes it pretty clear the addition of a HS on the RAF is not part of the build design - the stabilator is. Since in the US this all falls under experimental you of course are free to do whatever you want to the experimental aircraft, however in South African certified RAFs, it appears the addition of a HS would be contrary to the build design of the aircraft and maybe (just my guess) that adding one would be an unapproved modification for the type certification, at least in South Africa.

There is also a very interesting article published by GyroGreg titled Gyroplane Stability Misconceptions...really good read and does clear up (at least for me) the nuts and bolts of flight dynamics, aircraft stability, etc. While I believe he advocates a HS on the RAF, he also acknowledges they chose to approach the stability issue from an outside-the-box perspective (stabilator) and that is ok.

I've concluded at the end of the day the RAF is worth consideration. The consistent theme is training, training, training.
I am glad to see this information about the African Company. I have watched the videos, and was questioning why the modern RAF's did not have HS's . I logged in one hour lesson in a sparrow Hawk a few years back. After the flight, I kinda lost all interest in owning one. It took a heavy foot to control the rudder. Maybe something was not right. By then I had a full week training with a tandem Air Command Elite. I had logged in over 40 hours in my original low riding single place Air Command .And as of today was by far the best and most enjoyable experience . So easy to control it was like it responded to your thoughts. Most my air time is late fall, early mornings, and late evening. At times the pleasure is overcome with cold hands and feet. The thought of a heated cabin seems like a dream. The RAF is really the only gyroplane that is within my budget. Let me rephrase that. A used RAF is in my price range.
 
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What is the price of an RAF 2000 with a 2.5 soob. I looked on their website but I couldn't find any prices.

Also have to consider the cost of shipping across the pond.
 
RAF SA did not develop the Stabilator. Duane Hunn CFI from Michigan developed it and was the first to have on his RAF gyro. RAF Canada liked the idea and adopted it. At least that is what Duane told me.
Yea, I heard from him that he was never paid any royalties on his design. That is a shame, Dwayne could have used the funding. Do you know if Dwayne is still alive ?
 
Yea, I heard from him that he was never paid any royalties on his design. That is a shame, Dwayne could have used the funding. Do you know if Dwayne is still alive ?
He was at Mentone this summer. But I did not get a chance to talk with him.
 
Yea, I heard from him that he was never paid any royalties on his design. That is a shame, Dwayne could have used the funding. Do you know if Dwayne is still alive ?
Well, he assigned his patent to RAF, so he should have been paid something for that.


Three more things appear from this: the patent application (and its Canadian priority application) were filed more than a year after public use in the U.S. by Mr. Hunn (per the RAF doc cited above) which likely would invalidate the patent, the patent lapsed in 2016 owing to not paying required maintenance fees, and there is no record I can find of the patent ever being asserted against anyone in the courts. There may have been no licensees from whom to collect royalties.
 
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GyroChuck - The RAF2000 with the 2.5 is $45,000 USD. I contacted a local import/freight forwarder company and awaiting on the total cost [customs duties, ocean freight, land transport, etc.]. I'll post once I have the price.
 
Well, he assigned his patent to RAF, so he should have been paid something for that.


Three more things appear from this: the patent application (and its Canadian priority application) were filed more than a year after public use in the U.S. by Mr. Hunn (per the RAF doc cited above) which likely would invalidate the patent, the patent lapsed in 2016 owing to not paying required maintenance fees, and there is no record I can find of the patent ever being asserted against anyone in the courts. There may have been no licensees from whom to collect royalties.
I heard from him personally that he wasn’t paid a cent. How true that is I don’t know.
 
GyroChuck - The RAF2000 with the 2.5 is $45,000 USD. I contacted a local import/freight forwarder company and awaiting on the total cost [customs duties, ocean freight, land transport, etc.]. I'll post once I have the price.

GyroChuck - The RAF2000 with the 2.5 is $45,000 USD. I contacted a local import/freight forwarder company and awaiting on the total cost [customs duties, ocean freight, land transport, etc.]. I'll post once I have the price.
Have you tried buying a used RAF. Saves you building time and shipping costs from SA. Try Barnstormers.

 
All - I wanted to share with the group the data dump download I did from the NTSB website identifying all gyro incidents since 1966 through the present. I'm a "facts matter" kind of guy and looking at the data reveals some interesting statistics. I can't attach an excel file to the post, so happy to send across through email, so you can go through the data yourself. A couple of quick observations, but first, I want to clarify this is not about if the RAF should/should not have certain safety mods, the gyro is stable/not stable, high thrust vs centerline thrust, etc. No need to hash that out. But here is what the stats say:

  1. From 1993 to present, there were 50 RAF accidents reported; 12 incidents resulted in fatality; 4 incidents resulted in serious injury; 11 resulted in minor injury; 23 resulted in no injury.
  2. In the above stats, 3 accidents identified a loss of control for undetermined reason; 1 accident was due to the malfunction of flight controls for undetermined reason; 2 accidents mention pilot induced oscillation. When reading through all of the accident reports, only one investigator mentioned the lack of a HS.
  3. Looking at the Sparrowhawk variants, and assuming those gyros are the "improved" version of a RAF, from 2005 thru 2017 there were 10 reported accidents; 3 fatalities; 4 accidents with minor injuries and 3 accidents with no injuries. Interesting to note that 4 of the 10 accidents identified "loss of control for unknown reasons" and of the 4, 3 were fatal.
  4. For the RAF, 2 of the 12 fatality accidents were identified as "undetermined reason"
  5. When we take the "newer" gyros into the data [MTO, AR, Cavalon, Magni, Calidus, Apollo, Xenon] we have 59 reported accidents from 2009 through 2023. 11 incidents resulted in fatality; 11 incidents resulted in serious injury; 15 incidents resulted in minor injury and 22 incidents with no injury.
  6. So, the "newer" gyros over a 14 year period have a comparable accident/fatality rate to the RAF, which have been flying for over 29 years.
Seems to me the design of the aircraft has less to do with accidents and most assuredly 98% of accidents are due to pilot error which can be attributed to lack of training, insufficient training, poor judgement, etc.

I recently completed discussions with seven RAF pilots; two in Canada, three in the US and two in South Africa. They fly all variants of the RAF, from stock to modified... with hundreds to several thousand flight hours per pilot in the RAF; in no case did anyone say the RAF was an unsafe aircraft. What they ALL said is 1) If you want to fly a RAF, you should be trained in the RAF from the get-go and not transition from student to solo from one make gyro to another. 2) Your instructor needs to be someone who flies or has flown the RAF so they are familiar with the aircraft. 3) There is absolutely nothing wrong with making modifications to the RAF such as additional of a HS, adding the stabilator , lowering the keel, etc. with this caveat: DO NOT make any modifications to the stock RAF that have not been tested/proven else you potentially set yourself up for failure. 4) The South African guys, who use the RAF "commercially" DO NOT modify the stock aircraft intentionally as the type of flying they do {crop dusting and cattle rustling] they need the performance of the stock RAF and believe adding a HS would degrade performance FOR HOW THEY FLY the aircraft. Now I don't specifically know what their flying consists of, but I can imagine they need turn-on-a-dime performance for both crop spraying and cattle rustling and apparently the HS impacts that.

OK, so for all of my research, I've concluded that 1) The RAF 2000 can be a perfectly suitable aircraft when purpose built for your intentions and you have been appropriately trained on that specific aircraft. 2) Gyrocopter flying has a bloody past and up through the early 1990's, more often than not an accident resulted in a fatality. 3) There is much misinformation in the light sport industry about the ease of flying anything - be it a gyro, a trike, a fixed wing, etc. 4) The original meaning of EAB has gotten lost and due to the archaic rules in the US; light sport and EAB have been merged into this confused status - the idea that you can train in one type of aircraft and then immediately solo in something completely unfamiliar is in my opinion, an accident waiting to happen. So think about this...let's say you spend 20-25 or more hours in dual instruction mode in the CFI's aircraft...great, you have gotten familiar with the aircraft, handling characteristics, etc. and you solo. Now, you transition to some other gyro [could be single place, different manufacturer, etc.] on a solo basis without the benefit of further dual training in that aircraft...especially for folks who go from tandem to single seat, I'm just not sure that type of transition makes sense. The whole process is a bit overwhelming when you consider the lengths that someone has to go to in order to: 1) find an aircraft, find a CFI, schedule local training [generally not available] and the list goes on.

I'm not complaining here as it was no different for me in the trike world, but honestly I can see a hundred reasons why things can go south and the least of which has to do with the design of the aircraft. Read through the accident reports and you come away with a sickening thought that there are a lot of poorly trained, misguided individuals flying around that might not have any business being in the air at all. Of course, to be fair this probably holds true for many things in life.

So at the end of the day, it's all about how much risk one wants to assume in life. Mitigating risk can take on many forms and in the case of the RAF [but I would argue any gyro] how you choose to mitigate the risk is up to you - some may add a HS, some may do other mods, some may do no mods at all but increase the training time to compensate for flying a stock RAF. Bottom line, the facts spell out clearly that our focus should be on training people to be the best they can be, identifying issues with aircraft and correcting them when or as appropriate for the individual pilot and always humbling ourselves that nature [and people] have a way of ruining even the best of designed aircraft given the right circumstances.

For me, I'm putting the RAF debate to bed but appreciate having a forum to discuss/debate/challenge. If I continue my gyro journey, I look forward to sharing my experiences and hopefully, meeting some of you fine folks.
 
The one statistic missing from your list is the number of gyroplane accidents in the heyday of the RAF 2000 that were competently analysed by investigators who knew anything meaningful about gyroplane design, flight mechanics, and control.

It's tiny, and that suggests ample salt must be taken with their conclusions.

For your own analysis, beware of bad input data skewing the veracity of the output.
 
I have flown an RAF with and without a Stab. During my training with Jim Logan his gyro had no stab. I was able to fly well after ten hours of instruction. I flew several hours with Gary Brewer before he put on a Stab and several hours after. I know several instructors who were successful in piloting the RAF without a stab. They were all skilled pilots. What I concluded is the RAF with proper training can be flown without a stab. What I also concluded is the RAF was much easier to fly with a stab. With a stab the RAF wasn’t a machine that you needed to stay on top of constantly. It was much more forgiving for guys less skilled like myself. They only negative I perceived from the installation of a stab was a pronounced cabin hop. Not being an engineer, though I like trains, I don’t know why this occurred. It wasn’t something that was “scary” just different. I think with a stab installed the RAF gyroplanes are the best two place machines on the used market. For 25k you can find great examples. If only the insurance problem could be solved.
My perception of the RAF might be completely different than others. Take a ride before you decide to buy.
 
All - I wanted to share with the group the data dump download I did from the NTSB website identifying all gyro incidents since 1966 through the present. I'm a "facts matter" kind of guy and looking at the data reveals some interesting statistics. I can't attach an excel file to the post, so happy to send across through email, so you can go through the data yourself. A couple of quick observations, but first, I want to clarify this is not about if the RAF should/should not have certain safety mods, the gyro is stable/not stable, high thrust vs centerline thrust, etc. No need to hash that out. But here is what the stats say:

  1. From 1993 to present, there were 50 RAF accidents reported; 12 incidents resulted in fatality; 4 incidents resulted in serious injury; 11 resulted in minor injury; 23 resulted in no injury.
  2. In the above stats, 3 accidents identified a loss of control for undetermined reason; 1 accident was due to the malfunction of flight controls for undetermined reason; 2 accidents mention pilot induced oscillation. When reading through all of the accident reports, only one investigator mentioned the lack of a HS.
  3. Looking at the Sparrowhawk variants, and assuming those gyros are the "improved" version of a RAF, from 2005 thru 2017 there were 10 reported accidents; 3 fatalities; 4 accidents with minor injuries and 3 accidents with no injuries. Interesting to note that 4 of the 10 accidents identified "loss of control for unknown reasons" and of the 4, 3 were fatal.
  4. For the RAF, 2 of the 12 fatality accidents were identified as "undetermined reason"
  5. When we take the "newer" gyros into the data [MTO, AR, Cavalon, Magni, Calidus, Apollo, Xenon] we have 59 reported accidents from 2009 through 2023. 11 incidents resulted in fatality; 11 incidents resulted in serious injury; 15 incidents resulted in minor injury and 22 incidents with no injury.
  6. So, the "newer" gyros over a 14 year period have a comparable accident/fatality rate to the RAF, which have been flying for over 29 years.
Seems to me the design of the aircraft has less to do with accidents and most assuredly 98% of accidents are due to pilot error which can be attributed to lack of training, insufficient training, poor judgement, etc.

I recently completed discussions with seven RAF pilots; two in Canada, three in the US and two in South Africa. They fly all variants of the RAF, from stock to modified... with hundreds to several thousand flight hours per pilot in the RAF; in no case did anyone say the RAF was an unsafe aircraft. What they ALL said is 1) If you want to fly a RAF, you should be trained in the RAF from the get-go and not transition from student to solo from one make gyro to another. 2) Your instructor needs to be someone who flies or has flown the RAF so they are familiar with the aircraft. 3) There is absolutely nothing wrong with making modifications to the RAF such as additional of a HS, adding the stabilator , lowering the keel, etc. with this caveat: DO NOT make any modifications to the stock RAF that have not been tested/proven else you potentially set yourself up for failure. 4) The South African guys, who use the RAF "commercially" DO NOT modify the stock aircraft intentionally as the type of flying they do {crop dusting and cattle rustling] they need the performance of the stock RAF and believe adding a HS would degrade performance FOR HOW THEY FLY the aircraft. Now I don't specifically know what their flying consists of, but I can imagine they need turn-on-a-dime performance for both crop spraying and cattle rustling and apparently the HS impacts that.

OK, so for all of my research, I've concluded that 1) The RAF 2000 can be a perfectly suitable aircraft when purpose built for your intentions and you have been appropriately trained on that specific aircraft. 2) Gyrocopter flying has a bloody past and up through the early 1990's, more often than not an accident resulted in a fatality. 3) There is much misinformation in the light sport industry about the ease of flying anything - be it a gyro, a trike, a fixed wing, etc. 4) The original meaning of EAB has gotten lost and due to the archaic rules in the US; light sport and EAB have been merged into this confused status - the idea that you can train in one type of aircraft and then immediately solo in something completely unfamiliar is in my opinion, an accident waiting to happen. So think about this...let's say you spend 20-25 or more hours in dual instruction mode in the CFI's aircraft...great, you have gotten familiar with the aircraft, handling characteristics, etc. and you solo. Now, you transition to some other gyro [could be single place, different manufacturer, etc.] on a solo basis without the benefit of further dual training in that aircraft...especially for folks who go from tandem to single seat, I'm just not sure that type of transition makes sense. The whole process is a bit overwhelming when you consider the lengths that someone has to go to in order to: 1) find an aircraft, find a CFI, schedule local training [generally not available] and the list goes on.

For me, I'm putting the RAF debate to bed but appreciate having a forum to discuss/debate/challenge. If I continue my gyro journey, I look forward to sharing my experiences and hopefully, meeting some of you fine folks.
Congratulations on doing your own research and reaching your own conclusions Tom.

It is my observation that not all RAF 2000s are listed as an RAF 2000 on the NTSB reports.

With a very causal search I found 15 fatal RAF accidents from 10/94 to today.

It is my observation that the NTSB often does not know enough and does not allocate sufficient resources to a gyroplane accident to correctly determine the probable cause of many of the gyroplane accidents.

It is my observation that many accidents that destroy the aircraft are not reported.

There are many more “newer” gyroplanes flying than there were ever RAF 2000s flying.

I agree with your observation that training is important and more is better.

I know some high time RAF instructors so it is clearly possible to fly an RAF 2000 safely.

I call on them to mentor me when I have an RAF specific challenge in training.

Good luck on your gyroplane adventure Tom.
 
The FAA shows 279 RAF 2000 gyroplanes registered. That of course is a suspect number, because someone surely registered his aircraft as a Belchfire 2000 or something else, but it is the number acknowledged by the FAA. If your accident numbers are correct it means about 18% of the RAFs have been in reported accidents. There were probably unreported accidents as well. If roughly 2 out of 10 machines of any kind were involved in accidents, I think we would look at that machine with some "interest."

Is the RAF 2000, modified or unmodified, the machine for you? I have no idea. That decision is for you to make.

However:

The RAF 2000 is statically and dynamically unstable in pitch.

It can be made to be relatively docile with careful modifications and when flown within an envelope that does not exceed the pilot's limitations. It cannot be made to be bunt proof in all flight conditions.

The upset modality of a RAF is like a mouse trap. When it is triggered, it is triggered very quickly. As my friend Vance is wont to say, "It's hard to know how close to the edge you are."

Would I fly an RAF? With a decent sized horizontal stabilizer, as far back as possible, I certainly would and indeed have several hundred hours in RAFs of different stripes. There are some really good deals on used RAFs out there.

So, I will echo Vance. I wish you the best in your adventure. Continue to ask questions of the community.

Jim
 
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....

  1. From 1993 to present, there were 50 RAF accidents reported; 12 incidents resulted in fatality; 4 incidents resulted in serious injury; 11 resulted in minor injury; 23 resulted in no injury.
  2. In the above stats, 3 accidents identified a loss of control for undetermined reason; 1 accident was due to the malfunction of flight controls for undetermined reason; 2 accidents mention pilot induced oscillation. When reading through all of the accident reports, only one investigator mentioned the lack of a HS.
  3. Looking at the Sparrowhawk variants, and assuming those gyros are the "improved" version of a RAF, from 2005 thru 2017 there were 10 reported accidents; 3 fatalities; 4 accidents with minor injuries and 3 accidents with no injuries. Interesting to note that 4 of the 10 accidents identified "loss of control for unknown reasons" and of the 4, 3 were fatal.
  4. For the RAF, 2 of the 12 fatality accidents were identified as "undetermined reason"
  5. When we take the "newer" gyros into the data [MTO, AR, Cavalon, Magni, Calidus, Apollo, Xenon] we have 59 reported accidents from 2009 through 2023. 11 incidents resulted in fatality; 11 incidents resulted in serious injury; 15 incidents resulted in minor injury and 22 incidents with no injury.
  6. So, the "newer" gyros over a 14 year period have a comparable accident/fatality rate to the RAF, which have been flying for over 29 years.
Seems to me the design of the aircraft has less to do with accidents and most assuredly 98% of accidents are due to pilot error which can be attributed to lack of training, insufficient training, poor judgement, etc.

...

The problem with your analysis is simple. There were never that many RAFs flying as newer style gyroplanes ever. Not even in its hay day. I am in Florida. It is by far the capital of light aviation. You can fly a cross country from here and it is amazing to see that as soon as you leave Florida how significantly the number of light aircraft flying around you decrease. I barely saw RAFs flying here going back to 2003. There were a few but they flew very little. So there is a huge problem here with saying RAFs were as many as new gyroplanes. They were not and certainly even the ones that were there did not hardly fly as much.
 
I have owned and flown two RAF2000, I trained without the HS and then I added the Boyer Ultimate Stab, much increased pitch stability ,My ship also had the Stabilator with both air controlled roll and pitch controls. Now this was a game changer. Easy to fly, responsive and hands off stable.In fact I had an EA82 engine out in my first 5 hours training, made a perfect engine out landing first time, no damages. To day I fly a turbo Calidus, no problems, great ship.Total gyro time now 470 hours.
I just earned my Private Heli ticket at age 71 and fly a Hughes 269B.,no you are not too old to learn! But, learn and respect the flight envelope of the machine you fly.The best insurance is training, training, training. After you make 500 takeoffs, and 1000 landings, you tend to not take risks, or endanger the pilot!
Phillip
 
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